Recently, I heard a woman speak about training dogs with e-collars. She does call herself a trainer and runs a dog training school, though – in a sorely unregulated industry** – her background is as a vet tech.
Before I get into her talk, I will say this: I love PetSafe. I hate that they sell these products. They are an incredible company dedicated to doing good – heck, they have a remarkable guy whose sole job is to give away money. But I just want to be clear up front that I was on an expenses-paid trip out there, which was wonderful with the exception of the session with this woman.
In the opening bit of her talk, the trainer was mentioning other types of training and started to go into positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment… and then she said, “But I don’t really care about the science.”
That right there.
See, the thing is, I do care about the science. I care passionately and (somewhat) obsessively about the science.
And the science – all the studies, data, and results that have been peer reviewed and published in scholarly journals – discounts every single thing she said.
For example, she said that e-collar training does not cause distress but rather stress. And, she continued, stress is good for a learning environment. Unfortunately, a recent study showed that electronic collars do cause distress. Ah, but the trainer argued, the study showed “yawning” as a sign of distress, and perhaps the dogs were tired or bored? Except her dismissal flies in the face of countless anxiety studies that show yawning is, in fact, a sign of stress in dogs (and, actually, in people, too).
Her talk continued along that thread, essentially saying, “Here’s the science, but since I don’t believe it, I’ll continue to promote these collars.” Her schtick was to have e-collars on set to level 1 on her neck and 3 on her ankles, and if you wanted to ask her a question, you had to shock her. (I wanted to ask her to set the neck one to a 3, but I refrained…)
She then did a demonstration using the collar on her dog, asking her to do a whole series of tricks. The dog did the tricks almost perfectly. Did it look like she was being abused? Not in the slightest. Did it look like she was having fun? Well, not so much. Not to me, anyway. She kept trying to return to her bed – she was yawning and, according to this woman, that probably indicated she was tired.
When I started writing this post, my goal was to pull every study under the sun* about how positive reinforcement is more effective than using aversive stimuli (shocks.), but then I realized that, when it comes down to it, the bottom line for me isn’t the science. While I love studying the data, my bottom line is that my dogs have fun when we’re working together.
I want them to enjoy training with me. I want to use training to develop and strengthen our bond. And if you see the boys doggy dancing with John – done entirely with a clicker and treats – or you see them out with me playing our variation of “follow the leader” – you know they’re having fun. They’re not yawning or licking their lips or averting their eyes or trying to avoid us. They’re wagging with open mouths. They’re looking us in the eye, waiting to see what fun thing happens next.
In the abstract of the e-collar paper, the authors conclude, “These findings suggest that there is no consistent benefit to be gained from e-collar training but greater welfare concerns compared with positive reward based training.”
The importance of that point can’t be discounted. According to the trainer, students who come through her school aren’t interesting in high-level zapping but, rather, attention-getting “sensations.” I hope that’s true (but… on a side note… why are the collars even manufactured with those high levels built in? If, as this woman says, dogs pay attention at a 1-3 level, why even make a level 10 and risk that possibility? But, I digress…..)
E-collars and their kin do not serve to build your bond with your dog.
I do not want to “master” my dogs.
I want to partner with them. I want to work with them.
I want them to trust me – not fear me and my little button.
Luckily, when I started pulling all those peer-reviewed papers, it’s clear that the science is pushing us in that direction. And, in truth, PetSafe manufactures a ton of positive reinforcement products, too. (Check out the Train ‘n Praise. I am in love. I’ll have a post and giveaway soon.)
Thankfully, unlike this woman, many trainers do care about the science of behavior. And that science is demonstrating that humane methods of training surpass antiquated, aversive methods.
**I write about this stuff all the time, though I’m not a trainer. Yet. I’ve decided to enroll in the Karen Pryor Academy next year so I can back this stuff up with credentials.
*If you want to read a summary of one study I found interesting, check it out here.
Thanks so much for talking about this side of the PetSafe conference! Trick training with an e-collar is just completely baffling to me – as you say, the point is for the dog to be having fun, not operating like an automaton.
Yeah, exactly. I don’t get that either, Lara…
I’ve lived with dogs my whole life. Repetitive yawning is a sign of them being uncomfortable or “I don’t want to do this but I’m doing it to please you” or (yes) stress, or even distress. Unlike humans, according to my own personal experience, dogs don’t repetitive yawn when they’re tired — they just lie down and go to sleep.
Thanks for writing this piece. Very informative!
Huh, I never thought about this, but I guess when dogs are tired, they’re just like, “Okay, naptime. What’s the softest thing I’m allowed to be on? I’m gonna make a bed on it.”
Renowned animal behaviorist, Turid Rugaas calls yawning one of the “calming signals” that dogs use in order to calm themselves down. Others are licking their lips and sneezing. 🙂
Such an excellent point, Kathy. There’s a big situational difference – if Cooper yawns as he’s getting into bed at night, I think tired. If he yawns during a training session, especially if it’s repetitive or with his head turned, I think stress.
Exactly 🙂
Honestly, just reading about an ecollar gives me feelings of stress and distress and I’ve never even experienced the sensation. (I’ve actually had a prong collar on for a demo once and nearly freaked out).
I’ve actually been thinking about enrolling in KPA as well, so how cool is that!?? I think it would really help me in my interactions with my boys, with the shelter dogs and possibly set me up for a new career after or leading into my later years.
Oooh! If you end up doing it, maybe we can time the in-person sessions in Indy to go through them together! I need to take the foundations course first, which I think is all online, and I’m hoping to knock that out sooner than later so I can hit the spring 2015 sessions!
Thank you so much for speaking to the feelings of dogs, and thank you for this website. You are adding to the quality of life of so many dogs by opening the eyes of so many owners. I think the Academy is a great idea for you. Credentials always add to ones believability. And since you have developed such a great forum for your voice, move forward with those plans. Thank you for being the caring and educated animal lover that you are. Carry On!!!!!!
PS: My dogs (5 total) NEVER EVER yawn. Guess were doing ok here on the home front!
Phyllis, thank you SO much for the kind words. That truly means so much to me.
Have you seen the experiment where people yawned AT their dogs to see if the dogs could “catch” the yawn like people do? It worked! Maybe try that and see if you can entice a yawn! 🙂
Excellent post and we totally agree. There will NEVER EVER be anything other than positive obedience in this house!
Your Super Doodz Pals,
Murphy & Stanley
Same here, guys!! 🙂
“My dogs have fun when we’re working together.” Yep, and as soon as it stops being fun for either of us, we stop. No need to make those negative associations with training. Also, who wants their dog to be an automaton. I’d rather see what she can come up with, it’s fun for her and hilarious to watch for me!
Yes, Amanda!! The automaton point is such a good one! I want my dogs to be DOGS!
Great post Maggie. I am still deciding how I am going to talk about this subject on my blog. I don’t know as much about the e-collar as you do but, intuitively based on the little pieces I do know, what you say makes sense. I think we all made mistakes with our pets when we didn’t know any better and one mistake I made is using an e-collar on Chester as “punishment” for barking. I wouldn’t use a collar in that way again (and possibly not at all) but I struggle with judging people who use them (not a statement about you) because I used one too when I was frustrated and needed results fast. Ideally, everyone would be dedicated enough to positively train, and build a positive relationship, with their dog. Genuinely curious though…..what is to be done in those situations where an owner wants to do SOME kind of training – with an e-collar – but would do zero training if that wasn’t an option? I don’t know what to say to those people.
Absolutely, Jessica! I definitely DO NOT want this to come across as judging anyone else but rather discussion the science. In fact, when we first realized the extent of Lucas’ dog aggression (now he’s “dog selective” but at first it was straight up aggression), we hired a trainer who put him in a prong collar right off the bat. There’s a learning curve with all this stuff, and I firmly believe in that Maya Angelou quote: “I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”
As for folks who ONLY want to train with an e-collar, I guess I would say the best thing to do is to present them with the data in a non-judgmental way. Perhaps offer a demo of using positive reinforcement. Then, at the end of the day, everyone’s going to make up their own mind. All we can do is strive to educate.
I just now saw this thanks.
Maybe I can carry you around iny back pocket since 1) I couldn’t demo positive training to someone if I tried and 2) You are awesomely not judgemental 🙂
I could have more facts at the ready for them though…..
HAAA!!! I might get heavy after a while. Like after less than a second. 🙂 But, interestingly, someone shared an article that came out this week that looks at all these issues WAY more in depth. I’m going to post about it when I have time, but in case you’re interested: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dogs-best-friend/201410/when-did-you-stop-kicking-hitting-your-spouse-dog-child.
Heck, it might be easier to print and put THAT in your back pocket! 🙂
Thank you so much for bringing up this side of PetSafe’s product lines.
I loved the Premiere company. When PetSafe bought them, I no longer felt comfortable buying their products. Yes, I know Premiere’s owner expressed her hopes that acquiring the line would push PetSafe away from aversive tools. But it seems that PetSafe is happy to take whatever part of the market they think they can get, without thinking about the values expressed by their product offerings.
Hopefully clear and thoughtful posts like yours will have some effect on the company’s choices.
Personally, I’m with you. I don’t want to do anything with Honey that puts our relationship at risk. And even if people don’t buy the science (when did intelligence become a dirty word?), they’ll see the results of relationship-based training as more animal lovers share their experiences.
The relationship is so crucial to me. It seems like a no-brainer: Do I want my dog to work with me because he’s afraid of what’ll happen to him if I hit my little button? Or, do I want him to work with me because it’s SO FUN for him? I’m super proud that my guys know the word “training” and get really excited!
I am not sure what the concern here is. My 80 lb lab has failed 2 positive training classes…responds not at all to praise or food and the stupid clicker scares the heck out of him. He is headstrong and very independent. I would never ever advocate hurting an animal in any way. The tone and vibration collar helps me tremendously to keep him in the in the yard or to recall him. I walk him off leash 2x a day for long run & sniff sessions. There are times that I need to recall him closer to me and the beep on the collar does just that. He doesn’t seem scared of the beep….and I’ve used the vibration on myself and it does not hurt at all and I’m a baby. I won’t use the shock portion though. Just the tone and vibration. Please don’t assume that all dogs are just like yours and your way is the only way. My dog is loved beyond belief….fed extra well and cared for better than most 2 legged children. He just isn’t into a relationship with me…He sticks by me and always stays in the same room with me but doesn’t seem to want or need a relationship other than a play pal. Also and this is science…my dog yawns every morning when he gets up…he does stretches and yawns during as well as yawns on the way to bed at night…and I can guarantee you that he is not stressed after an hour of free off leash running through fields and meadows…chasing bunnies and squirrels… he really is just tired.
Thank you so much for weighing in, Dee. It sounds like what you’re describing, though, isn’t actually using a shock collar. It sounds to me like you’re using the tone in exactly the same way that I use a whistle – to call my dogs when they’re out running around. That is totally different from using the shock to “correct” bad behavior with that aversive.
I absolutely don’t assume all dogs are like mine – heck, the world would be a nutty place if all dogs were as loony as my Cooper. But, I do believe that – in broad, general terms – all dogs LEARN in a similar manner because their brain structure and chemistry is the same.
As for the observation about your dog’s yawning: absolutely! Dogs DO yawn when they’re tired. The super important piece to take into consideration here is the situation. If you dog is yawning before bed, it’s clear that he’s sleepy. If your dog is yawning during an intense training session, it’s likely indicating stress. Here are a couple of concise articles on that topic:
http://dogs.about.com/od/dogtraining/a/Yawning-In-Dogs.htm
http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2013/april/why-do-dogs-yawn-30190
Lastly, as for the clicker, I 100% agree with you that it is NOT the right solution for all dogs. Cooper was very scared of the click, too. However, it is a super common misconception that clicker training IS positive reinforcement. While clicker training can be a component of that method of training, they aren’t the same thing. With clicker training, the clicker simply marks the desired behavior. You can use words or visual cues like hand signals, too. Here’s the psych definition: “…positive reinforcement involves the addition of a reinforcing stimulus following a behavior that makes it more likely that the behavior will occur again in the future. When a favorable outcome, event, or reward occurs after an action, that particular response or behavior will be strengthened.” So, not the same at all! I’m more than happy to chat with you in depth about any of this!
But thank you so much for taking the time to share your experience!
Thank you for not being upset with me. After reading more of your information I am interested in your method but confused. How do I reward a dog that is not a big eater ( he does like steak..lol) but not hot dogs or most treats…It’s very hard to get how I positively motivate him if he doesn’t want much of anything. His 1 true joy is to be let loose on the trails and fields behind our house. We live pretty rurally. He lives to hunt and run down mice, squirrels and cats….so I let him do that for 25 mins in the morning and 1.5 hrs at night. He never catches anything and I wouldn’t allow him to hurt them if he did…but he is not overly into his toys or playing fetch…kind of a weird dog…won’t touch oatmeal peanut butter or anything with pumpkin or sweet potato in it. We go to obedience class but I hated it…he was miserable and the trainer kept saying he will be my slave soon which is NOT what I want! Next class he was fine in class but won’t heel or anything at home…very frustrating. Great dog but hard to motivate. He also is quite fond of licking my face and head as well as the husbands…but isn’t overly thrilled with being touched himself. He will allow gently belly rubs for 3-5 mins but never more than that. He seems to prefer rough wrestling with my husband. He loves any game that involves keep away or wrestling…heeeeeeeeeeeelp??????????
Of course I’m not upset, Dee!! I love that you shared your experience, and I love any opportunity to chat about these crazy dogs we love so much!
I can’t even believe a trainer would say that your dog would become your slave. I would’ve quit that class, too. UGH!
But! I think you have a perfect opportunity with his one true love of running around your yard! I do have a few quick questions about the food thing first. How do you feed him? Does he get two meals/day in a dog bowl? Is he free-fed? You said he’s not a big eater. Does that include his meals, too?
He is difficult to feed period. I have used flat dishes, bowls… on the floor …various methods…not much works. He does let me hand feed him 70 % of meals but its not my favorite thing 🙂 He came to me at 5 wks old covered in hives and abused. Vet had me feed boiled rice and chicken/ beef for few weeks…when we tried kibble the stuff he liked made him itch and breakout in hives…grain free he hates! Finally found kibble he will eat some of but never with gusto or clean plate and only if I drizzle melted butter bacon or beef fat on top! ( save the lecture – know – I cringe at his arteries too ) but vet says better to eat than not at all. He runs 3-6 miles a day so he is not overweight at all but its still not healthy so I worry.
He doesn’t even eat rice and beef most times when I try that either. He eats better after run but still for a dog his size he should be eating 3-4 cups of kibble a day yet I can barley get 1-1.5 in him daily. I have to supplement with hamburgers…shank steaks or chicken. He will east some jerky but not often or much and there is no snack I get in him 100% of the time. Pickiest thing ever….I had no idea some dogs don’t eat whatever…
Although thinking now he does like cat treats…hummm…could I use those????
I do make him sit before being given bones and try obedience things but its hit or miss with him….and when he doesn’t do what is asked I don’t know what to do so I just walk away….which is wrong to but I am not going to yell or swat him either…and when it comes to holding out- he wins!!!! Vet had me time feed him for a week…bowl down 20 mins in the am and 20 min the pm.. well he did not care for that and went 4 days without eating….at all!!! I broke first!
So now I run him extra in am and he eats 1/4 cup or so then I leave the rest out till dinner…sometimes he snacks on it throughout day but not often then I use same stuff…drizzle butter and hamburger on top for dinner… then I proceed to beg and plead for him to eat. If I just leave food there he won’t touch it…If I feed first 5 handfuls he sometimes will finish on hi sown but again not always…sigh…
Dogs do yawn when tired, but I was referring to the repetitive yawning that they use when trying to calm themselves down, when stressed or upset or uncomfortable.
He is seriously lucky he is adorable!!! lol…he looked like a baby bear when got him…and he does this sad…pleading with his eyes thing…its terrible because I am such a sucker for this pooch… Husband laughs says he’ll eat when hungry but I’ve watched him starve so I don’t believe it
Oh, my gosh, Dee! This gives me SO MUCH to work with! 🙂 I have to head out to teach shortly and won’t be back until late, but if you don’t mind, I’m going to move this discussion to email so you don’t have to keep clicking back on this thread. I will send you an email with my ideas (warning: it’ll be a long one!!!) later tonight or first thing tomorrow!! This’ll be fun!
Wow- what an interesting topic. And so much feedback. Many years ago, before I was enlightened we used an e collar on a dog we were fostering (hoping to keep) who had a high cat prey drive. I was desperately trying to teach her not to eat the cats, but she really didn’t care how high the levels were (that’s why they are high. I don’t think she even felt it) she just wanted the cats. Well the cats were there first and we re-homed her with an awesome family that didn’t have cats. I had such remorse but I realized later that I was just doing what I thought was best at the time. And I really did love her and was trying to figure out a way for us all to get along. I’d actually love to hear what you say to Dee…
It seems to me that there’s a fine line between stress and distress that could be easy to cross with one of these collars.
I would never ever use one myself, but I can almost understand the use for behavioral issues or training for safety (like invisible fences). But for trick training? What’s the point? And if the tone and vibration is all that’s needed, why even have the shock portion? I just don’t quite get it.
This is a great post, Maggie, and I love your conversation with Dee above and that you’re going to help her.
Hello
I would still appreciate any feedback on how to do “positive” reinforcement on a dog that is not food or toy motivated? The only game my dog enjoys is very aggressive wrestling ( he does with my husband). Dog is large and very mouthy so I am not particularly interested in wrestling with him every time I am happy with a behavior of his. His only other loved activity is long walks which we do daily but I can’t exactly reward him for good behavior on a walk with a walk??? So any ideas??
Hi, Dee! I sent you a huge long email to the address you used to leave your comments. Have you not gotten it? Or perhaps it went to your spam?